Response to Terrorist Attacks
An Interview
with Alex Gee
Alex Gee is a Pastor in Madison, Wisconsin, and the Urbana 2000 worship
prayer leader. Urbana.org writer Paul Grant spoke with him on September
21st.
P: Describe to me your emotional states as a Christian, as a pastor, in the early days of this episode.
A: I'm always reading into symbolisms and metaphors, trying to understand. What's the message, what's the meaning. I want to get it. I'm trying to sense what God is saying to us, and I'm careful when I say that, because I don't want to make it seem this is God's judgment. I try to stay away from those kinds of things. But I think in any circumstance, I think God is really saying something. As a pastor, I want to know what God's saying so I can communicate it.
I really thought as an American, that this couldn't happen here. Growing up and hearing about history, this is different. The whole country witnessed it. We watched it live, or with the tapes looping so much, it almost felt like it was live. And it brings up thoughts of our own mortality, our being vulnerable.
When my grandmother died a few years ago, it really shocked me because she was a great spiritual force, a pioneer in beginning my church. I had never really seriously thought she would die. When she did, I was like "this isn't supposed to happen". It was the same wake-up call. "This wasn't supposed to happen on American soil."
P: W.E.B. Du Bois wrote about the "Double Consciousness of Black Folk", where in one unified Body, one is American and African American, and those two identities can go the same direction at some times, and a different direction at others. For myself, as a white American, I don't have that fissure: the world around me tells me that I'm fully American. But as a Christian, for the last several years, I've been forced to distinguish between primary identities. I try to tell myself that I have more in common with a Kazakh Christian, than with the guy across the street.
How are you approaching this rupture in America, as a Christian and as an African American Christian?
A: We were out of the country when this happened, surrounded by people from many nations, a very multinational situation. I could feel a growing sense of solidarity among the Americans. Not against other people, but this sense of connectedness. And I was with people who were Korean American, Japanese American, African American. And from the time this hit, throughout the vacation, it was very apparent we were all Americans. It wasn't "U-Rah-Rah America go get 'em" - it wasn't like that. It was a sense of family and connectedness, so that race and color and gender, and the things that used to separate us, weren't so important. Strangers talked. People stuck up conversations. And as people of color, I think we focused less on our ethnic background, and felt some comfort and solace in being American at that time.
Some of us as African Americans were cynical; we were thinking, "How can you be from a country that has vowed to destroy America and Americans, and you're able to come in, buy property, go to flight school, buy any kind of training they needed?" It made black people think, "I can't even go the convenience store without being followed up and down the aisles. I can't even go to the mall without having someone walk behind me. There are signs on gas stations saying "no more than two kids in the store at any time", and you don't see those signs in Fitchburg [a suburb of Madison]."
So these two things are happening - there was more liberty here for these people than what we ourselves have enjoyed, and on the other hand, we felt like there were a lot of white people who were happy that we're Americans, and won't focus so much on our being black. There's a growing need for solidarity among Americans.
That was interesting, for that window of time to not feel - and whether it's right or wrong I'm not sure - but to feel that race was not as important as our nationality. There was something liberating about that.
Now what's sad is that historically, blacks have been very patriotic, and have served well in our wars, and then things go back to normal. I'm hoping that won't be the case. I'm hoping this really is a new day.
P: Vinoth Ramachandra [Urbana 2000 speaker] is calling on the American Church, among other things, to pare nationalism from faith. Can you give me some advice?
A: As to separating faith from nationality, I don't know if blacks really struggle as much as whites with tying their nationality to their Christianity. When we started Nehemiah [community development corporation in Madison which grew out of Alex Gee's church] years ago, we wanted to have pictures of King and different black leaders; some of our white partner churches didn't understand that. They said "race doesn't matter" and asked why culture was so important, and "in the white church we don't talk about culture." And I said, "Sure you do; you just do it differently." And they'd say, "what do you mean," and I said, "Find me a black church that has a flag in it." Now we do that in school, but growing up, I never saw a flag in church.
I think Vinoth's letter might push Christians a lot, to maybe think how ethnic minorities might feel when they're told that certain kinds of songs or worship styles are not important, or not scriptural or not Godly. There are a whole lot of people who cannot imagine faith without nationalism. Vinoth is calling for that.
For a lot of blacks, our culture is wrapped up in our Christianity, so I think that might be a similarity to what white Christians are experiencing. But as ethnic minorities, we've heard the call for quieter services, having more analytical preaching rather than allegorical preaching. We've felt the call to separate who we are in our culture from our faith. I'm not comparing culture and nationalism, but understanding our experience in making this separation might help the white church understand.
P: Nationalism does not necessarily refer to a specific nation-state; nationalism has been defined as the force of imagining a community and willing it into existence.
A: I think it's in times of war, that Black Americans are happy with America. It's one of the few times we feel we benefit from being Americans. It's sad that it takes a war, a tragedy. I hope we can use this time to really imagine a community and will it into existence, and acknowledge the community that has been trying to exist.
P: As somebody who grew up overseas, I've always had difficulty with the question "where are you from?" I was watching a recap on the news of a prayer service. And they were praying for wisdom and insight. And then they concluded with a round of "God Bless America". Now the final line of that song goes God Bless America, our home sweet home. At this point, how do you feel when you hear America and Home equated?
A: For me, America is home. I don't want to live anywhere else. This is where I pay taxes, and own property, this is where I'm raising a family. My ancestors helped build this country. Most blacks don't have problems with being Americans - and I'm sure it took a few generations after slavery to begin feeling like it's home, then being disenfranchised and being told you can't be an American because you have to be a person to be an American. That made people respond in an anti-American way. But it wasn't because people didn't want to be part of the land or work, or have a brighter future.
Just as the very people who reject God because of Christians, are often themselves on the trail of God, it was the way white Americans represented America that made some people reject America.
But this is home. It's got its issues and flaws, but I don't want to live anywhere else. I don't want to jump ship, but I want to feel like it's home. If America is going to be home sweet home, I want to feel like I'm at home in other churches. I want to feel like it's home when it comes to getting a loan. When I go home I take off my shoes and go to the refrigerator. I don't want to be followed at home, or asked why are going through the refrigerator or why are you sitting on the nice furniture, or bringing company over? But what would upset me is asking people to sing home sweet home, but allowing some of us to live in the main house and others out in the shanty. That can't continue to happen.
P: Now a lot of people have drawn a connection between the world's hatred of America and the disparity of wealth in the world, where a lot of our strength is related to the destitution in many of these countries. I've heard people say that the people in the World Trade Center were not innocent victims, rather they were foot soldiers in the war of conquest waged by the American economy against the poor of the world.
A: What people are saying here - it's threatening. But it reminds me of trying to explain to a white person, "You might not have personally called me a name, or burnt a cross on my lawn, but you benefit from a system that does it."
P: For the last five or so years, I've gone through a heart-wrenching process of learning about "white-privilege", and I wasn't able to verbalize it as such when I first started, but learning about how much almost everything I take for granted as an American don't automatically come to all Americans. You've got a background in both community development and economics. I'm twenty-five, and a lot of people who will read this interview are in the same general stage of life, and we're trying to think about financial planning for the rest of our lives. How do we approach economic justice? I realize the purpose of life is not to retire wealthy, but I, and a lot of people my age, don't have a decent alternative vision.
A: Being an American, and being able to be a participant, a contributor, and a recipient of the American Economy, is probably the closest thing a black person will feel to white privilege. At the same time, many blacks feel they are three or four decades behind, and probably, when it comes to economic issues, feel more ravaged and taken advantage of, by white America.
When you look at how black Americans are doing economically, although you see people like Bill Cosby, or Michael Jordan or Oprah, you'll think "wow, blacks are really doing well", but if you look at everyday folks who are working, they're hardly doing better than their parents.
So if we're looking at economics, blacks don't feel that American. If we are let into positions, we get to, you know, take care of black folks for the businesses. Vice President of Diversity, or Director of Minority Marketing. But that allows us to bring a check home, and buy a car and a home and food.
But I don't agree that the people in the World Trade Center were not innocent victims. They didn't ask for that. They didn't wage a war. Look how much work it's taken you to realize the privileges you can count as a white male. Not because white males aren't understanding that: I'm beginning to understand there are privileges to being an educated black male. But it's taken you a long time to understand this: five years in a painful process. Someone jumping on a plane or just going to work is not necessarily thinking or processing: "I'm a greedy American, trampling on the poor countries of the world."
The American church has got to hear what God is saying to us about greed. Why aren't we preaching more about greed, treating people with love, or being gracious, or taking care of the poor? Because we don't want to anger the 20% of our people who pay 80% of the church's income? We think our tithes build the church, not God.
That why, I think, churches don't come down hard on racism, or on social justice: because it's going to anger people. And when people get angry, they don't bring their money. So I think greed plays a big role in what's happening. In the church, we spiritualize greed and call it prosperity. Now I think there is a prosperity, that He meets our needs. I believe that. But getting bigger for bigger's sake, or just for competition's sake? The way I measure that is the quality of the lives of the people. Are people communing with each other? Are they growing in Christ, in humility? Are they feeling connected, feeling like a family? Do all the ministry you want, but if your church is growing, but the people aren't growing, then your growth is not about souls and relationships.
So I think the American church has gotten off course. It's interesting that the planes didn't hit the capital or the White House, but they hit the World Trade Center. They were making a statement about financial equity and greed, and I think we need to take a look at that. I'm not going to go as far as saying this is like the Tower of Babel, and draw that analogy, but it makes us ask, what's our trust in? We've been told in scripture: you can't serve God and Mammon, you can't serve God and wealth.
P: You were in Gaza and in the West Bank this spring. As you're processing the events of September 11th, what are you thinking about out of those experiences?
A: I can't believe that people live with the threat of terrorism day in and day out. As Americans we watched the events of September 11th, and thought, "Now I've experienced it on my own soil, in my lifetime." But to imagine people experiencing terrorism or similar violence all the time, is incredible.
Now when those kids were out on the streets celebrating the collapse of the towers, part of me was ticked. But then, I could understand it. Because as I sat there, and spoke with Palestinian community leaders, they asked, "How can you as Americans just sit there and let this happen to us? Why aren't you telling people? Why aren't you telling your churches? Why are you supplying Israel with weapons? Giving them money to build superhighways right over our villages? How can you just sit and do that?"
And we just sat there dumbfounded. Of course, there are two sides to every coin, but those were difficult questions to hear. I can imagine them saying, "you trained those terrorists, now you know what American weapons feel like in the hands of an enemy."
P: What do I do if drafted? How do I approach war, as someone who's eligible to be called up?
A: The whole question of Christians and nationalism is tricky, because we see scriptures about being subject to authorities, and Christians toe a fine line. We call it civil disobedience when we want it, and when call it 'stealing the pulpit' if we disagree. It's not a good witness for churches to avoid civic duty, while the American church is thriving in the strong American economy, so I'm not one who tells Christians not to do it. But I tell Black folks, if you go into the military, they'll put you on the front lines.
There are Christians who are police officers. You can't serve and protect by holding a Bible in the air. Someone has to fight in the military. There are examples in scripture where godly folks were involved in combat.
So I would encourage people to do it prayerfully. I don't think He'll tell everyone to serve in the same way. But pray about what God is putting in your heart to do. People should certainly have an attitude of protection, and not one of revenge. We need the right motivation for war.
I appreciate that the President is making it clear this is not an attack on Muslims, but an attack on terrorism. And we need to do this out of a love for world peace. Although there are times when God's children have been called to battle, they've never been called to hatred.
P: Where do we go from here?
A: As a Christian, I'm doing a lot of evaluation - my commitment to God, to ministry, to my fellow men and women, my family, and I feel this is a very good time to tweak what needs to be tweaked. I've got to be honest: I've felt something off-kilter in my soul in all this. It's something slight enough that unless there is something as jarring as the recent events, I wouldn't have noticed it. I'm really looking at myself: where am I hating my fellow men and women? Where am I saying 'show me the money'? Where am I more focused on the American dream than on my call? This is a great time for centering, and if nothing else, we have to use the events to find our role in God's call. And God's call is not local or national, it's global.
Part of what makes this war so different is that it happened on American soil. What is it going to take for us to feel that same way about hunger, or about AIDS, or child mutilation for the purpose of peddling them on the street? What is it going to take for the church to expand its borders, to feel that what happens in Somalia affects us? How are we going to understand who my neighbor is?
Alex Gee
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